GENUINE UK Bikes.

[Neil the Don]

Right, here we go.

As I import and sell quite a few Kawasaki`s ( amongst a whole bigger bunch of British bikes ) I come across this issue on a regular basis.
Is it a UK Bike ?

( Or more annoyingly for me , ! Is a genuine " English" Bike FFS )

The other most frequently asked , and again to me INANE question : " Does it have matching Numbers ? "

Now, it seems to me the numbers thing has spilled over from the British restoration brigade. From my side, its not a problem, as most bikes from the USA are pretty low mileage and are " matching" numbers. But I do think that anyone who puts great sotre on that above much else ( like does the engine work ) is a pure and simple Nob !! ( E BAy buyers who buy on a photo, and fret over the exact colour of the tank, or a blemish in the chrome rarely worry that the engine might be knacked. I just dont get that either !! )

So to the Crux of the matter. " Genuine UK Bikes" Now I have thought very long and hard about this.
My first Kawa was a 1972 White S1 . It had an L reg, from 73. And a Kph speedo. So I assume i was imported from France. I know little else about it. So maybe my formative years have started my disregard for the " G.U.B." issue.

Back in the early days. Kawasakis were a rare and elusive to find beast. They came with the Myth/Legend that they were MentalFAst, and they probably were comparitively. ( Although A Norton Commando was every bit as fast as an H2. Maybe not for too long, but thats often down to the differing types of owners too )
And with this Legend/Myth status. Anyone who had one, was a.) Mental , and so to be worshipped
b.) Special, because his bike was special.
( And in his own mind, more attractive to Gurls, and faster than everybody else , because his bike was. ) And remeber we`re talking teenagers here. So all this is true !!

So having one of the only 40 H1-b`s ( or whatever )imported into the country made you SPECIAL. And that may have been the only special thing in that young lads life. He may have been a total Nobber, ugly as sin, unable to chat/pull a bird, or outdrink his Granny. Nay, he may have total crap at going round corners or riding a bike hard`n`fast, but he has aSPECIAL Kawasaki. So he was SPECIAL.
And again, I re0iterate, as a teenager, that was how it was for many. ( I of course, had none of these problems, being as good looking and confident as I am today. And capable of outriding, out shagging, out drinking anyone and everyone. So a Kawasaki was a mere enhancement to my God-like prowess.!!! )

Right then. So lets zoom into Middle Age. And oh look, that bloke who had the `72 Kwacker still has it. Crikey, he keeps it in his bedroom. Its MINT !!! Still got orignal tyres, toolkit, and safety stickers on it. And its A GENUINE UK BIKE.
What ? Oh , I see, in the last 30 yrs, with the internet, E Bay and a bunch of Bike Importers all of a sudden, ANYONE can get their hands on a `72 H1-B.

So all of a sudden, this unconfident teenager, who is now married to the first Bird he snogged. And has had a dull and completely unremarkable life , anf has achieved nothing in it to ever make him feel special again , since he got his SPECIAL Kawasaki. He`s now faced with the unpalatable fact that now even his Kawasaki si no longer special. As, if you have a bit of cash, anyone can buy one. Oooeeerrrr.

Ah, but hang on. My Bike is still SPECIAL. As its a GENUINE UK BIKE , so it doesn`t have a red reflector, and the headlamp dips the same way as a Jap home market bike. So thats ok, coz I`m still special............................................


Now, think before you reply. ?!!

And be sure you understand, that I am not taking a dig at anyone. So this is not about you or anyone you know.

Well, actually it must be ! But I am not thinking of anyone in particular here. Oh, and b.t.w. I actually do own a G.U.B. And its a Kawasaki, and it won a prize at this years Rally.

Oh Hell, maybe I`ve just described me ?

[Neil the Don]

And it was the Rat Bike prize

[Barrie]

you have a pm

[Charlie]

I recall drooling over the Kawasaki triples when I was 14/15 and they first appeared in what was then the local Kawasaki Centre in 74/75 (giving my age away now).

The shop lasted maybe 3 years before it shut - which I guess says a lot about how good Kawasaki's were then, as motorcycles were absolutely everywhere and there was almost a shortage of number plate blanks cos registrations were so high ....so there was no shortage of potential customers.

The first bikes I properly recall falling in love with, were not my AP50 or CB125S - but two mates S1C's. I was talking with one of 'em only the other day, unfortunately he has now lost most of his sight and doesn't ride anymore - he knows I have my (Americo/Japanese from Neil) H1F though that is nigh on the same colour as his S1C was. He related some of the tales of woe that he and the other mate with the S1 had when the bikes were new.... it was endless. Problem after problem after problem. electrical, mechanical, you name it, it went wrong or fell off.

Given that, and the fact that there were never many made it over here via Agrati anyway - it's an absolute wonder that ANY "UK" bikes are still about.

Were it not for Neil and Rick.... and one or three others I know that have done the same over the years, I guess there would be almost none at all now, cos the few that there were about here - would have been reduced even further due to the necessary cannibalisation that these gems of Japanese engineering regularly require. The American stuff that most of us now own (or feed off) courtesy of the aforementioned dealers, would have all been scrapped years ago due to lack of demand in the home market.

I work in the bike trade, I have done for over 30 years. There is still discussion and argument even now in the industry over "genuine" UK bikes v grey or parallel imports. It's a subject that'll never go away.

Personally, I don't care. They are all made in the same country irrespective of market destination. If it's new I expect a warranty, if it's S/H then it is buyer beware.

I can tell you this much though - in about 20/30 years, the exact same discussions will be being shouted about on European classic bike forums about genuine Dutch/Polish/French etc bikes v UK ones, cos that is where HUGE swathes of OUR current s/h motorcycle stock is disappearing to.

[scouse]

I have a UK H1B

Gary T

[Old Nail]

I think the importance attached to 'genuine UK' bikes in part reflects the current demographic of the owners. In the 1970's every Kawasaki was sold to a young man that wanted a fast motorbike, and if it was also a flash good looking one into the bargain then that was the draw.

Today, young men have much to choose from that is the new 'fast and flash', so while we older chaps reminisce about the 1970's and riding Kawasaki triples they ride their Yamaha R1's. Many older fellows don't ride their bikes much now either, they own them for various reasons - not least of which are as investments which has of course driven the h2 bubble.

Once a machine stops being a motorcycle, a machine, a mode of transport, or an instrument of fun, and instead becomes a pension plan, then these silly distinctions begin to matter. The young man of 1975 could go just as fast and have just as much fun on an import as a UK market bike, but now it's not about that, the parameters have changed. Some bikes are not even motorcycles any more, they have become purely commodities, after all what possible use is a NOS bike otherwise? And following the rules of commodity the rarest are sold at a premium.

Today a Kawasaki H2 isn't a desirable and fearsome 'widowmaker' in the eyes of those young men likely to be riding Yamaha R1's, it's just an appreciating asset in the eyes of comfortably off middle aged men. If the bikes were bought just to be ridden and used then the addition of a couple of US style reflectors wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the riding pleasure, but they aren't bought purely for that any more are they?

That's why I conclude that it's down to the owner demographic. Blokes in middle age have learned a thing or two about business, depreciation, investment, etc along the way, and are now applying what they know to their hobby. Therefore whether or not a 'Genuine UK' bike is worth any more than an import is defined purely by what you intend to do with it. If the answer is that you are just going to ride it then it makes no difference whatsoever, but if you are playing the canny investment game then you are the men responsible for this 'UK bike' argument.

Do I think UK bikes are worth more? Well yes and no. No because I just want to ride the thing not put it in a museum. When used as a machine there's no difference at all, but yes because it is perceived to be more valuable by those that look at it that way, so with an eye on resale value those types will pay more for it.

[Charlie]

I would suggest they are only perceived as being more valuable by a very small proportion of UK triple owners - and even then, only for the immediate present.

Even on here which is likely the largest concentration of triple devotee's in the UK, opinion is split.

If 50% of the site membership (which I doubt - it'll be more like 20% in reality) sets higher perceived values on UK marketed triples - that is still only a couple hundred people that believe UK destination bikes are different and so worth more.

To sell a UK marketed bike at a higher price then, you'd need to target one of those few .... ?

If the the rest (vast majority) of the potential marketplace don't seem to bother about that so much, surely it's more probable they will just look for the best bike at the best price irrespective of it's original home ?

An investment is only that if it sells and realises a profit. In real terms even if a bike were bought and put away unused and unbuilt in the late 70's (as I believe Rick may have done ?) yeah, it will fetch a larger sum of money than it cost then - but in proportion to income and current prices, probably not much more now than it it cost then, certainly so if you factor out what interest rates would have added had the original sum simply been left to collect dust in a reasonable interest bank account ?

Another point to consider too, is just how long will the triple bubble last before it bursts ?

If Old Nail is correct - and the price IS being driven by us middle aged lot who are reminiscing fondly about our long lost youth - well we are getting older by the day. In 20/30 years time - all those younger R1/ZX10 (although I have one of those as well) owners will be in the driving seat as far as what is worth what - we will all be in bath chairs dribbling down our chins. Using ON's reasoning - they cant value UK triples higher than say US ones, cos they were likely not even born when the bikes were made ..

Maybe it's best to bale out of the investment factor now (if that IS the driving force) while there still is a market to sell into ? Cos it could just all wither away anyway ....

or alternatively, just ride the bloody things before the government legislates us off them altogether and they are worth nothing but scrap value ?

[kas750]

^^^^ A bit of uk bike envy going on here?

[Charlie]

Not really, but if that is how it is perceived then fine - are there any more salient points in favour of the argument that we can actually discuss ?

[kas750]

No... as its so much fun watching you self combust

[Charlie]

I am not self combusting. I am not gonna be drawn into a playground style off topic spat either that probably relates more to a previous post than this one ...

I am attempting to offer some reasoned arguments/discussion to support the thread title and content.

If you agree or disagree - at least offer some supportive statement to either end

[Old Nail]

^^^^ A bit of uk bike envy going on here?

Not from me Ady, but I would be happy to sell 'genuine uk' stuff at a premium to those who value it higher.

If Old Nail is correct - and the price IS being driven by us middle aged lot who are reminiscing fondly about our long lost youth - well we are getting older by the day. In 20/30 years time - all those younger R1/ZX10 (although I have one of those as well) owners will be in the driving seat as far as what is worth what - we will all be in bath chairs dribbling down our chins. Using ON's reasoning - they cant value UK triples higher than say US ones, cos they were likely not even born when the bikes were made ..

It doesn't work like that Charlie although logic would dictate so. If it were to be the case that the value of a thing dropped out as soon as the original owners were dead then there would be no such thing as antiques, no valuable London to Brighton veteran cars, or 1930's Bentleys etc.

It's all about the cross-over point, that is to say when an object ceases to serve the purpose it was initially created to fulfil and begins to be viewed differently.
'Rarity', 'collectors item', 'genuine' and other such prefixes are usually an indication that this has begun to happen. Once the crossover to 'investment' has happened then it rarely goes down in value as 'investors' then create their own self fullfilling prophesies. Not all investors care about what they buy, just so long as it is perceived to be on the up, rare and valuable.

The fact that there are only a handful of Kawasaki enthusiasts able to buy them is then negated, as it won't even be enthusiasts that make up the market, it will be anyone that sees them as a smart long term buy.

[Charlie]

See, I actually agree with you there ON. The whole going beyond original purpose thing is likely correct and is why we value old machines as we do.

To pick up on your vintage car points and extrapolate a little - I wonder how much value THOSE owners place on original market destination of the vehicle - or if they are simply overjoyed just to have the object of desire itself irrespective of it's place of original sale ? Does it matter in that market if the 1930 Bentley was originally sold in Monaco or Manchester ?

On the specific point of this thread, I can see where some UK market bikes have a higher value placed on them by some owners/potential owners at present.

What I don't see though - is that lasting beyond this current crop of owners. I tend to believe that in 30 years time, a H2C will just be - a H2C irrespective of original place of sale, and the potential owners will simply be as happy to own one, as the Model T owner is now ?

[Old Nail]

Well it puzzles me. You see unless those genuine UK bikes are 100% untouched originals, then they are restorations, which means the chances are a greater or lesser part of them might actually be parts sourced from US ebay and imported from there.

When hung on a frame that was itself imported to the UK in the 1970's do they then become the genuine uk parts to make up that UK bike? That's what makes it a bit odd really. I used the term perceived several times marked in bold to make the point that all values are perceived - for everything. Intrinsically there is no difference in the bikes, the additional value is only there in abstract.

Take a look at this bloke on ebay and I'll tell you a little tale.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/downieart/m.h ... 4340.l2562

That fella has been selling his Lowry style paintings for a tenner a time for the last five years. Last year they were still a tenner each. What happened then was some punter took one onto 'Dickinsons real deal' TV show, where the 'expert' proclaimed it to be by an up and coming painter who's work will prove to be an investment. It was bollox of course, as they were only a tenner on ebay the 'expert' was talking hot air, but look what happened next.

Everybody who saw that program began to buy his paintings, and they now change hands for hundreds of pounds. Self fulfilling prophesy! The paintings are no better - but the perception changed. I'm not knocking him, nor am I against those that want to pay more for a UK bike, but it's all just a money game - Perception is all.

[Olde Coney]

+1..

Market forces and desireability can also affect how/where you spend your dosh

If you really want it and feel that you can a££ord it, then buy it because, without doubt, you are a long time dead :!:

If, however you are in it to make money then your views will no doubt be from a different perspective

[g6mow]

All this bickering about UK bikes and the money people are paying for parts really P's me off. What does it matter Surely the main thing is we are all here to enjoy Kawasaki Triples. If you have the money and want to spend it on NOS parts then why not If you prefer to own a UK bike then why not

Everyone to there own, thats what I say

[S2Gerald]

Well we could discuss this for ages, but it it probably is mostly a case of each to their own; so people will pay to get what they want, but unfortunately that tends to push prices up for everyone else and hence the potential for investment. I too wonder when the bubble will burst (although I'm not too botherd as I only have two triples), but then thinking about the veteran thing and potential investment (i.e. really old bikes worth loads and who cares where you get it as long as you get one), we'll probably all be long gone by the time triples really hit their peak, should they get to that level (e.g. Brough Superior etc.). So buy it, ride it, or sell it if you need some cash. If you just want to sit and look at it, as long as it makes you happy, what do I care!

[Tartan Triple]

MOT it,fuel it,cane it,nos is for a bike that will never be used in anger,some people,who ride their bikes,buy them to have as spares in case of accident or bits falling off,which then means that the price paid goes through the roof when show bike men are bidding,supply and demand,for me now,if it breaks or falls off and the replacement costs to much,repro,i would rather shove my rider full of repro through a hedge,than a fully nos parts bike,they have to be ridden,polished and ridden,yes,polished and paraded,no

[Olde Coney]

All this bickering about UK bikes and the money people are paying for parts really P's me off. What does it matter Surely the main thing is we are all here to enjoy Kawasaki Triples. If you have the money and want to spend it on NOS parts then why not If you prefer to own a UK bike then why not

Everyone to there own, thats what I say

+1.

absolutely right Si, its our life to do with as we wish and its nobody elses business what price is paid for a part, be it N.O.S, repro,or a part removed from a wrecker....good luck to ya whatever you choose to do with your dosh ~ on your bike ~ enjoy it..

The KTC has a diverse cross section of members with varying likes and dislikes, and that, for me, is what makes the whole experience so enjoyable........... now fer fks sake lets move on, cos I for one, am bored shitless with all this opinionated nonsense, lets get back to talking (normal bollox)

We all should get pleasure from our Triples either just looking at them, or riding them, or in many cases doing both.

[husson73]

weren't all triples supposed being built in Japan :!:

[Old Nail]

+1.

absolutely right Si, its our life to do with as we wish and its nobody elses business what price is paid for a part, be it N.O.S, repro,or a part removed from a wrecker....good luck to ya whatever you choose to do with your dosh ~ on your bike ~ enjoy it..
lets get back to talking (normal bollox)

As I understood it the conversation point was whether a bike officially imported into the uk was more valuable than a near identical one privately imported. Got nowt to do with who spends their money on what, and more to do with what constitutes a UK bike. Would selling A UK frame restored with with a large percentage of US sourced spares still be considered a genuine UK bike worth a premium? That's the illogical bit.

It's all smoke and mirrors anyway, so in that respect I don't think we ever strayed from talking bollox.

[malc87]

Im sure you will find people are restoring bikes, including ones first sold in the UK, to UK spec??
dont really matter to me what parts they use?