Gearbox problems

[Macbusa04]

Hi I am having trouble with my H1A when I try to put it in gear it stalls the engine. I have try kicking the engine in neutral and the kickstart wont turn the engine with the clutch in. The clutch appears to be working but not with the engine running. I have run the bike on the main stand and can go up and down the gear box.I hope some one has some ideas.

[scouse]

Sounds like sticking clutch plates to me

Gary T

[Treeman]

Yep - mine did that when first back on the road and still does sometimes if it's not been used for a few weeks. I took the side casing off and dismantled / cleaned / reassembled the clutch the first time. Not sure that I needed to go to so much bother but it did the trick.

[Neil the Don]

Your besty using a 10/30 gear oil.

EP80 or 90 is too heavy.

Back in the day you usd to see 20/50 engine oil recommended. But that can be a bit sticky too.

( Although you will now get a few others coming on and insisting otherwise !!! Oil is one of those things that bring out the "experts " !! )

[g6mow]

ATF :smt003 .....but I'm no expert :wink:

[Hal]

WTF - I AM an expert

In the short term, just free the clutch up like you would on an old British bike's start up ritual - before you tickle the carb for a petrol smelling thumb

You don't want to keep trying to smash/crunch it into gear or you will damage the engagement dogs and have it jumping out of first later on. This damage is a real common problem and led to a shortage of replacement gears (talking H2 in particular), though you can now have new ones made at a cost.

[El Presidente]

ATF :smt003 .....but I'm no expert :wink:

.
Neah, logic tells you that a motorcycle gearbox is like a cars automatic gearbox so ATF should work perfectly . . . It doesn't quite cut it, when I had a real job I would nick the ATF from work for my H2's the bike would ride fine but after 15 miles or so the clutch plates would swell up (?) or at any rate something in the engine would occur whereby you couldn't get the bugger into neutral at the lights and the bike would creep forwards all the time, changing to decent engine oil worked, I used 10 / 30 and still do

[Neil the Don]

Y`see. Told you the oil thing would kick in !!!

ATF is something like a 5w . I estimate this as it`s an alternative to fork oil in BMW Boxer twins. And if you put anything heavier than 5w in them, due to th internal damping holes, it`ll blow the fork seals. ( Experience talking !!! I might add that vack in the 70`s BMW fork seals were VERY cheap )

ATF is designed to swish around tubey tunnelly things ( See how technically knowledgeable I am ?!! ) inside automatic gearboxes. It doesn`t have the additives or weight to resist the cutting motions within a normal cog box.. Car engine oil does have all that stuff in it. Ignore anyone and everyone else who now comes on here and claims car engine oil will make your clutch slip !!!!!!!

And as a side note, blooddy nora, thats about 3 times Rick ha agreed with me recently . !!!

[scouse]

So tell me where in a car engine does the oil used for cars get mashed about by gears?
Car manufacturers have oil specifically for use in car gearboxes
Very few people change gearbox oil in cars so this might not be common knowledge
Beats me why people want toto use car oil andwhen there's 2stroke gearbox oil available off the shelf

Gary T

[scouse]

This is quoted text about modern car oils in older car engines s taken from Wikipedia

Most engines built before 1985 have the flat/cleave bearing style systems of construction, which is sensitive to reducing zinc and phosphorus. Example; in API SG rated oils, this was at the 1200-1300 ppm level for zinc and phosphorus, where the current SM is under 600 ppm. This reduction in anti-wear chemicals in oil has caused premature failures of camshafts and other high pressure bearings in many older automobiles and has been blamed for pre-mature failure of the oil pump drive/cam position sensor gear that is meshed with camshaft gear in some modern engines.

I would use car oil at you own risk

Gary T

[Neil the Don]

This is quoted text about modern car oils in older car engines s taken from Wikipedia

Most engines built before 1985 have the flat/cleave bearing style systems of construction, which is sensitive to reducing zinc and phosphorus. Example; in API SG rated oils, this was at the 1200-1300 ppm level for zinc and phosphorus, where the current SM is under 600 ppm. This reduction in anti-wear chemicals in oil has caused premature failures of camshafts and other high pressure bearings in many older automobiles and has been blamed for pre-mature failure of the oil pump drive/cam position sensor gear that is meshed with camshaft gear in some modern engines.

I would use car oil at you own risk

Gary T

Told you !!! Oil. . Brings out all the mutters !!

Just as well we don't have any valves or camshafts in our gearbox and primary drives then . Eh Gaz ?

I'd hate to see what would happen to an H2 clutch and gearbox if it span at 6000+ rpm.

[scouse]

This is quoted text about modern car oils in older car engines s taken from Wikipedia

Most engines built before 1985 have the flat/cleave bearing style systems of construction, which is sensitive to reducing zinc and phosphorus. Example; in API SG rated oils, this was at the 1200-1300 ppm level for zinc and phosphorus, where the current SM is under 600 ppm. This reduction in anti-wear chemicals in oil has caused premature failures of camshafts and other high pressure bearings in many older automobiles and has been blamed for pre-mature failure of the oil pump drive/cam position sensor gear that is meshed with camshaft gear in some modern engines.

I would use car oil at you own risk

Gary T

Told you !!! Oil. . Brings out all the mutters !!

Just as well we don't have any valves or camshafts in our gearbox and primary drives then . Eh Gaz ?

I'd hate to see what would happen to an H2 clutch and gearbox if it span at 6000+ rpm.

I have said it before, car engine oil I'd not designed to be pounded by gears, which is why I highlighted the gear failure part.

As Neil has pointed out, this is a hotly debated subject
Good job we're good friends

[El Presidente]

I have said it before, car engine oil I'd not designed to be pounded by gears, which is why I highlighted the gear failure part.

As Neil has pointed out, this is a hotly debated subject
Good job we're good friends

.
I'd better have a look at my H2 drag bike gearbox then, it's ben totally abused for 1,000+ miles and is using Car engine oil in the gearbox

[Macbusa04]

Thanks for all the help I will be taking the cover off and cleaning the plates. Back in the 70s we used car oil for gearboxes ( not much choice then) so I will get some 10/30. Don't know if it helps the discussion but a lot of cars in the 70s had the gearbox as the sump, eg mini, morris 1100 and so on I think maybe some modern cars are the same. So car engine oil should be up to the job. Its great this internet so much help at your finger tips, thanks all and will let you know the results.

[Wolfie]

I used car 10W30 for years but had just a hint of clutch slip when the engine was let loose.. I put it down to the silicone and other stuff designed to make it as slippery as possible in the block.

Then I went to bike 10W30 (paid three times the price), and it was just the same.

More recently I went to ATF or 80/90 (I think) it actually looks like runny piss before it goes in, the gears are noticeably noisier, and I complained to you lot at the time.

Personally I believe RB..

Guess what will be going in next?

[Mitsui Spy]

Don't know if it helps the discussion but a lot of cars in the 70s had the gearbox as the sump, eg mini, morris 1100 and so on I think maybe some modern cars are the same.

Sadly no. It was a shit idea then and it still is. All modern cars have a separate gearbox with its own oil. Even in the 70s I can only think of the BMC A series and a little Peugeot engine that had this arrangement. Both suffered from early failure.

[Neil the Don]

Thanks for all the help I will be taking the cover off and cleaning the plates. Back in the 70s we used car oil for gearboxes ( not much choice then) so I will get some 10/30. Don't know if it helps the discussion but a lot of cars in the 70s had the gearbox as the sump, eg mini, morris 1100 and so on I think maybe some modern cars are the same. So car engine oil should be up to the job. Its great this internet so much help at your finger tips, thanks all and will let you know the results.

Quite right. A wise and sensible decision. ( and you can also now have spotted some of the regular nhutters with weird ideas who post on here !! Just ignore everything they say from now on and you won't be far wrong. )

[Wolfie]

erm.. hang on James..?

you woulda still been in short pants in the 70s.

[Neil the Don]

erm.. hang on James..?

you woulda still been in short pants in the 70s.

Graham, he still is !!!

[Mitsui Spy]

you woulda still been in short pants in the 70s.

Aye? In the '70s, in short pants, driving me Mini. Where's the problem?


Okay, not all 12 year olds were given a Mini for Christmas but we lived on a small holding - different rules. Wish we still had it, 1959 model, magic wand and floor starter - worth a few quid now (even if there were holes in the floor back then). Was my Granddad's until it got laid up. Still have the old logbook somewhere.

70's cars were very relevant to me though as a teenager in the '80s. We droves Minis, Mk1 Escorts, Vivas, Avengers, Dolomites, Spitfires, Hunters etc. Any old shit we could afford basically.

Graham, he still is !!!

I'm flattered but I just don't think it would work out between us.

[Kawaclive]

Modern car engine oil does have th same shear factor protection as oil designed for motorcycles with integral gearboxes.
The gear surfaces will wear more quickly.

[Neil the Don]

Modern car engine oil does have th same shear factor protection as oil designed for motorcycles with integral gearboxes.
The gear surfaces will wear more quickly.

I assume you meant " doesn`t". So it`s just as well Triples gearboxes are not integral then !